This Guy's Pretty Cool

[teleen_fiction]

TW: This video contains a rape survivor telling her story. 

I found this when I was answering a comment on a previous post and watched the video that was attached again.  It's a bit old, but I doubt she's changed her mind at all.  As if I needed another reason to hate what Sarah Palin stands for:

Comments

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I'm pro-life but I agree with the girl in the video and loved how the presenter explored Palin's daughter's situation too

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

If you agree with the girl in this video, you're not pro-life.

To me, pro-life means that you support denying a woman freedom to choose.

The problem with the pro-life movement is that it's made 'pro-choice' synonymous with 'pro-abortion' and that's not the case.

Pro-choice means that you support a woman's right to do as she wishes with her body, regardless of circumstances, because you aren't living her life and have no right to judge her for her choices.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

okay, maybe I should re-phrase that because my answer is quite complicated

I believe that once a child is conceived it is a living being (i.e. that life does not just start at giving birth and I'm aware that people disagree with that thinking) - however I also know that no situation is ever easy and I don't deny the right of a woman to choose (but taking the above belief into account I think it shouldn't be taken easy) ... I know that it's not all black and white as the lines seem to be drawn in this argument - life is not either / or

I also think that with the privilege of choice (the woman has that, the fetus has no choice either way) comes responsibility

So I can support a right to choose and at the same time also believe the fetus should have a right to live - it's an individual weighing up, using the woman in the video and Palin's daughter for example: I have more understanding for the woman aborting the child conceived in rape than the one who conceived because she'd not educated herself in birth control

(to put this into perspective, this is a very emotional and personal issue, I think that children are not to be taken for granted - it took me six years to conceive and it was not an easy pregnancy, he came early and nearly died within the first few dasy, so it does upset me if people assume that it's easy to just have a child because they now decide to - which is in some ways related to therefore aborting one)

gosh, this is a long comment and I hope I'm making a bit more sense than that short comment earlier did

[masterde.livejournal.com]

First, let me say that I'm sorry it took you so long to conceive (I'm sure that's mentally and emotionally very difficult), that it was a hard pregnancy (but I don't know how you define an 'easy' pregnancy), and that your child almost died. None of that should be taken lightly or dismissed.

However, if the fetus has the right to live then let it live in Sarah Palin or one of her girl's bodies, let them bring it to term and then raise the child. Saying that someone should carrying a child to term and raise it is not a 9 month process. It's a life long process. You have to make sure that child survives because they are unable/ill equipped/ don't have the tools to take care or themselves. And you don't stop being a mother when the child turns 10 and can microwave their own macaroni and cheese dinners. You still have to take them to school, pay for school supplies, gas and wear and tear on a vehicle for transportation, childcare while you're at work (unless you're lucky enough to have a grandparent who's willing to watch the child), clothing and food costs, would you deny the teenager a cell phone to call in case of emergency?, entertainment costs (toys, movie theaters, DVDs, Blu-Rays, transportation, uniforms, equipment fees, etc.). Are you going to tell a woman that she has to go without new needed shoes for work because she should pay for her child's college education, too? And that's a 2-8 year commitment beyond them becoming legally responsible for themselves and their actions. I'm not saying that you advocate that but it's just something some people believe should happen. There's a lot of expense and hard work that goes into raising a child.

So, do we punish someone for going out and getting drunk and having unprotected sex? I'd like to see a show of hands of people who've never done anything that stupid in their lives. Now it's one thing if you do something like that and you have and abortion and you've learned your lesson. Hard lesson to learn but one learned over and over, generation after generation. But let's face it, some people need that lesson 4 and 5 times over to really learn it or getting an STD before they start carrying condoms in their purse (not putting all the responsibility on the woman, men should carry condoms in their wallets, too).

I suppose it's just hard for me to ever tell a woman that she has to carry a child to term, that she doesn't want, because you don't stop being a mom when the child turns 18. This is a life-long ordeal. You will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to raise a single child. And what happens when you could only afford yourself on your budget? Welfare, food stamps, head start programs in schools, Medicare, or any other government funded programs. Because then you're not just tell one woman she has to bring the child into the world but that every American has to pay to raise that child. Even if the child is given up for adoption, every working American is paying for that child's upbringing and the burden of hours spent raising the child are shifted to someone else. That's not fair either.

To be honest none of it's fair. The world isn't a fair place. I'm not saying that you're wrong. If this comes off that way, please forgive me, it is not my intent. But there are a LOT of factors that go into a life, whenever you believe that life begins. And being that we do* live in a capitalist country, we are all about freedom of choice.

We don't have to buy a certain toilet tissue or only one kind of car. It's socialist programs that take care of a lot of ill-thought of conceived children (not that the child is thought poorly about but that no thought went into the act in which a life could be created). And I'm not saying that capitalism is better that socialism, it's just we're capitalists and those are socialist programs. Statement of fact, not of personal opinion.

Not to go all Trekkie on you but the needs of many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. And each time it's one child's life against any entire world of people. Or one parasite against the rest of the world, if you believe that a child isn't alive until they're breathing and eating on their own and not taking nutrition from the mother's body.

*I put "don't" instead of "do." My bad.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I class six months of permanent sickness and 1 1/2 stone weight loss as not easy...

and all the issues you've described (no money, responsibility etc) have happend to me due to the depressive illness of my husband who was unable to work - shall I now divorce (or even euthanise him) him because he is/was a parasite in my life - draining me emotionally, financially etc? (as I was working the state did NOT help out - even took child care support money off us because he was at home and it was therefore not necessary - yes, a depressed man unable to get out of bed looking after a 4 year old energy bundle - I don't think so!) I married him and made that commitment and I'm working hard to make life work - we're having a long slog getting out of our debt situation caused by his illness -

A child is such a committment that shouldn't be entered lightly but there are also ways to not get pregnant (which I appreciate don't apply to the rape victim) so the woman has the choice right there (and drinking alcohol does not stop you from taking responsibilty for yoruself right there)

As you say, Life's not fair but I also feel that a life should be worth more than money -

and yes, I'm cross about people who don't work and get benefits that seem to be worth not working - having a child as a single parent gets you up waiting lists for council housing etc - my taxes support them too and I'd rather not but that is not the child's choice but the parents - I sometimes think we would have been better off if I'd not been working, that is what galls me

It has also meant, for example, that I am taking sensible precautions not to conceive another child (much as I want to) because I could not support that child - as I live in the UK contraception is free - you can walk into a clinic and get as many condoms / contraceptive pill / implant freely as you need which I understand is not the case in other countries - which feeds in my point above

[masterde.livejournal.com]

I understand depression well. I try and stay positive about the things in my life but, even through medication, my mental illness can break through and I'm sleeping 20 hours a day for 2 weeks straight. And without a support system (such as you were for your husband) I would not be able to survive. I've thought a lot about the fact that I've been a drain on society. I freely admit it. American tax dollars come into my bank account every month. I am, however, using those tax dollars to live off of while I go to university so I can change from being a drain on society into being a productive member of society. And this is a life long battle with mental illness. I don't get a break. I deal with it every day. And while not an excuse, my depression, when I have it, is a reason for my action/inaction. It's as much a part of me as breathing. Those were the cards I was dealt. I'm trying to make the best of it.

Your husband's depression (my condolences, btw. It's never easy on a care giver) is something you were willing to accept instead of divorcing him. Not so with an unwanted pregnancy. To use your example, they choose to divorce (abortion). Is it morally right? Hey, I'm the last one to speak on morality so I'll just keep my mouth shut on that subject, except to say that those morals that we have differ from person to person (such as your opinion and my opinion on this particular subject. Our morals tell us if/when it's acceptable and not acceptable.)

And the socio-economics of raising a child in a low-income vs. a moderate-income is vastly different as far as statistics go for if that child will grow up to repeat their mother's mistake. Maybe it shouldn't be about money, but it is a part of the equation. Sad really, but true.

I also think, though we didn't touch on this, that if the father wants to keep the child, and can find a suitable surrogate for the fetus, then they should be allowed to keep the child and raise it. But again, that's choosing a child and making a commitment that they want. Not one that's forced upon them by anyone else.

Unfortunately, here in America we now seem to have 2 conservative parties (Republicans and Tea Partier) and funding the places like Planned Parenthood who would provide education (to schools, if invited, or to individuals who come in and ask [but sex is such a taboo subject here that someone wiling to walk in off the streets to educate themselves is rare]) are having their government funding cut to next to nothing. It's all "Abstain until you're married!" Right like that's stopped any teenager (including those high and mighty teenage Republicans and Tea Partiers) from having premaritial sex. Look at Sarah Palin's daughter. Big Republican, told her daughters nothing about sex but not to do it, and then they go and do it. Frustrating to an extreme. So taking sensible precautions isn't really an option for most teenagers or adults here in the US.

It's a sad state of affairs when we can't even talk to our own kids about sex and give them precautionary measures to keep them from getting someone/getting themselves pregnant. Case in point: A conservative government funded group put out an ad campaign that showed a father miming pulling on a rope, against a great force trying to push him back, as he slowly made his way towards his young daughter. The message they gave: "We know it's hard to talk to your kids about sex. You don't have to tell them the specifics, just tell them what you want them to do." !WTF! Children and teenagers don't listen to their parents. Especially about something that every hormone in their body is telling them to do. What kind of message does that send?

Parent: "Stay away from sex it's icky and wrong."
Hormones: "Throw him down on the bed and stick it in!!!"

How confusing is that message? Damaging them, it is.

And you're right a child is a commitment that shouldn't be taken lightly. But what about unprotected sex? Shouldn't be taken lightly. But we don't talk about that over here. No, oh no. *welling up of great shame for even thinking about it*

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

Thanks... depression is a tough battle (and though being the care giver is tough... living it must often be worse - I can find ways of dealing with how I feel) my husband is working again hence we're dealing with the money issues...

Re the sex education: I agree, sex needs to be talked about - I attend church where the teaching is about not having sex before marriage and whilst I agree with that (I share the faith after all)- I've seen the damage it can do not even to talk about body parts and making someone feel comfortable about their sexuality (whatever that may be) so that is something I am determined not to repeat with my son

I've also worked in the Health Service for the HIV service... my son will learn about STDs and prevention - if he's determined to 'stick it in' then he'd better be safe with it -

in the same way I think a woman should be responsible who she lets do that to her and she can only be sensible if she has that information, the UK apparently has the highest teen pregnancy rate so it's a similar issue here, but I don't see being drunk as a valid excuse to not take responsibility for yourself if you know what to do

I know it's a corny line: but I think with right comes responsibility - yes, it's my body and I choose who does what with it - but it's my responsibility to treat it well (i.e. not expose it unnecessarily to STDs and/or pregnancy) - again, rape is of course a differnt issue here but I hope I make sense

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that you had a difficult time conceiving and am very happy that you were able to have a child.

That said, a fetus is not a life. It just isn't. Until it takes a breath outside the mother's body, it is a parasite living off of her.

The rights of the born outweigh the rights of the unborn, 100% of the time. I have no objection to you feeling differently PERSONALLY. However, the law MUST reflect that the woman's body and rights come first, otherwise women are nothing more than chattel, broodmares at the whim of the state.

I am not a broodmare and will fight to keep every other woman from becoming one as well. Again, this comes down to the right of the individual to CHOOSE what is best for them WITHOUT outside interference FROM ANYONE. NO ONE has a right to tell a woman that she MUST carry a pregnancy to terms UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. EVER.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on a woman's right to choose - but what I'm also trying to say is: a woman has the right choose to stop a man putting his penis up her vagina if he is not involved in pregnancy prevention in the first place (it is as parasitic as the pregnancy I'd say) - we will not agree on the fetus/parasite issue - a woman's right / responsibility starts before the pregnancy and that is what I think I'm challenging

and yes, contraception fails and rape is separate from that of course and we agree on that, please don't think I don't and every case is individual

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

a woman's right / responsibility starts before the pregnancy and that is what I think I'm challenging

Bullshit. I can't think of anything more coherent than that right at this moment, so I'm just going to say that that's complete and utter bullshit.

It puts the responsibility for the pregnancy ENTIRELY on the woman, says that it's her responsibility for 'allowing' the man to put his penis in her vagina and generally plays into the thousands of years of misogyny that have caused women to be systematically oppressed and kept as chattel.

If men and women are TRULY equal, the responsibility for the pregnancy is not all on the woman for 'allowing' sex. It takes to to fucking tango (pun definitely intended). It also treats a woman's sexuality as something different than a man's.

I'm thinking very hard about how to articulate this, because I want to be absolutely certain I say exactly what I mean here:

If men and women are equal, then a woman has as much of a right to have as much sex as she wants, WHENEVER she wants, with WHOMEVER she wants, always. If her body belongs to her, then it BELONGS TO HER, with no qualifications, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Am I saying that it's okay to use abortion as a form of birth control? You bet. HER BODY, HER CHOICE. Personally, I would find abortion to be a lot more unpleasant than pretty much every other method out there, but again, HER BODY, HER CHOICE.

I have to say that your comments made me truly angry because they are both sexist and misogynistic, whether you realize it or not. Again, saying, a woman has the right choose to stop a man putting his penis up her vagina is shaming a woman's right to her sexuality, is essentially saying, "Well, if she didn't want to live with the consequences, she should have kept her legs closed."

That sort of attitude isn't cool to me because it says that a woman's body is only hers until she happens to be host to a POSSIBLE life. And that's all a fetus is - a potential life. It isn't alive until it takes a breath. Normal, healthy, full term pregnancies end in stillbirths every day.

And women who are raped die in childbirth after being forced to carry a child they never wanted to term every day.

But leaving rape out of the equation, (which I'm going to do for one simple reason: "Abortion is only okay if the father is an asshole?" ~Doug Stanhope) if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she shouldn't have to be regardless of how she came to be that way.

Again, either I'm a person or a broodmare and heaven help ANYONE who tries to make me into a broodmare. If our species were in danger of extinction and I was one of 100 women left on Earth, maybe, just MAYBE I'd VOLUNTEER to have a child to continue the species, but at this moment, my body is mine to do with as I please.

FTR, I'd like to have a kid, but on MY TERMS AND MINE ALONE. No one else gets to decide what's best for me and my body. Ever.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

no, it's not only a woman's responsibility to think contraception, I never said that (or didn't think I had)...

but if you value your body as much as you tell me you do, wouldn't you therefore reserve the right not to actually let a guy have unprotected sex with that body if he's not interested in thinking/talking contraception (or even more importantly sexually transmitted diseases) and consider the consequences of his actions - that is equalising it I'd say and the point I tried to get across and maybe didn't very well

If you want to have sex with that person without protection and then have that abortion as contraception - that is your choice as you say (not one I'd agree with but I think we're both aware that we won't agree on everything here such as the fetus issue)

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

Okay, I sort of see where you're coming from now, but again, it still comes down to her body, her choice.

Even if a fetus is a 'life', the woman was there first and her life should always have priority over the one that could be.

I don't have sex without protection, but we're not talking about me - we're talking about thousands of women who are forced to give birth every day, who are indeed forced to RISK THEIR LIVES to bring children into the world that they don't want.

Their reasons for not wanting to carry the child are completely unimportant to this discussion - either a person owns their own body, or they don't. Period.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

as you say, her body, her choice... I just think that in some cases the choice can be made before conception takes place - I know that does not apply to all cases and that there are injustices happening which needs dealing with and I'm becoming more aware of quite a few of them

I meant the 'you' generic, not you as a person

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

I know that does not apply to all cases and that there are injustices happening which needs dealing with and I'm becoming more aware of quite a few of them

Same here, which is why I've become so black and white on this issue. In a perfect world, there would be no unplanned pregnancies, but so long as there are, the woman's rights must be the top priority.

I meant the 'you' generic, not you as a person

My mistake - I apologize.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I think black and white / one versus another is excluding middle ground - as an example: I'm a born again Christian... now, quite a few people reading that will automatically assume that therefore I must be against gay people or people who do not share the moral belief system that underpins my faith and that I therefore hate them. That is of course fed by the rather vocal 'Christians' that peddle 'God hates' - not my experience but it's the one that gets the press.

I'm more complicated that that and so are my relationships - I love that I can follow your blog and learn about your work place and the issues it raises etc, in the same way that I follow another person (a gay black man) whose issues I don't always understand but which are teaching me.

Yes, I believe the moral teachings of my faith apply to me but for me that is underpinned by 'God is love'. That means that any relationship I develop (even online) is underpinned by love and value of the other person and that that value supersedes the fact that, as the other person does not change my faith and/or moral values, does not live by them. I'd not expect them to... they don't share the values.

I hope that makes sense.

and don't worry, English is a complicated (in German I could differentiate)